Trouble tuning Racecar

[micke240sx]

I got a few issues with tuning our Camaro twinturbo racecar.
Basic info:
CBB 489
2x Borg warner fans.
8x 1600 ford injectors secondary
8x 1000 injectors primary
Aem 1900 (universal)
8 teeth on crank
1 tooth on cam
2x honywell hall pickups

Issues:
Missfireing
Rough rpm graph (I post a pic of one of our latest runs with a enginespeed graph from one of our first runs as comparison)

Im kinda running out of ideas on what to test to make it run better, im gonna build a new bracket for the camsignal until next race, we got a custom distributor plug setup atm, but i get some timingerrors after a few runs and then i need to turn the camtooth to make it good again.
All the mechanical parts of the engine is working good.

So pls take a quick look at the pics, cal file, and logs and see if u can help us out with this.

Issue #2:
2step not deactivating when he releases the button quick enough, sometimes almost 0.4sec before it stops retarding the ignition. i attach a pic of that too. in the bottom graph u see the "switch #1" goin off and if u look at the rev+ ignition u see the 2step is still running.

I also attach a log i did today of the parameters for the cam-crank signals (310808_003)

[PQatPIT]

Eh, I don't understand why you have in Setup-Sensors-Cam/Crank Sensor-Options an Eng Cycle= 1 rev-option checked. I assume this is a four stroke engine? Chevy big block, 489 cid?

If hall sensors are used one must check that their significant edges do not get near each other in any situation. I have done a few setups where this has been eliminated by using 12 teeth wheel and one tooth from cam, ie. 24+1 teeth per engine cycle, and checked with oscilloscope in every thinkable situation. I mean, cam signal significant edge should fall about halfway between crank signal significant edges AND not move too much forward or backward. Eight teeth ie. 16 teeth per engine cycle should be even easier. Also crank sensor wheel should be on the crankshaft, there is no other way to really know where crankshaft is.

Also there might be misfire, ignition system may not be up to the task. Please tell us more details about coils and drivers/amplifiers and so on.

I assume you have two injectors per inj output, inj 1-4 to primary, 5-8 to secondary injectors.

And, pc logging isn't too fast. One must use ecu logging to really see what happens and when. And even ecu logs are not fast enough to really reveal fine details about incoming cam, crank or knock signals nor outgoing ignition/injection/HS#x/LS#x signals.

As they say: hope this helps 


PQ


EDIT: I noticed that you are in Sweden.  I'm in Helsinki, Finland and not so far from ya.

EDIT2: a thing I noticed in log "testrun1.stf": as soon as engine stops the coolant temp gains 20C or more. I suspect some wiring and/or grounding issues. I have done engine wiring harnesses for a few years now and this kind of behaviour is a result of two things, either a faulty sensor/connection or grounding.

[micke240sx]

Eh, I don't understand why you have in Setup-Sensors-Cam/Crank Sensor-Options an Eng Cycle= 1 rev-option checked. I assume this is a four stroke engine? Chevy big block, 489 cid?

Yes its a chevy, the reason i use that is since i need to "waste fire" the injectors and only got 10 points to do that, i need to get the injectors to think it´s a 2stroke engine. If i don´t click that and just lower the inj teeth to 1 rev (instead of 1 cycle) i will get double enginespeed everywhere.

If hall sensors are used one must check that their significant edges do not get near each other in any situation. I have done a few setups where this has been eliminated by using 12 teeth wheel and one tooth from cam, ie. 24+1 teeth per engine cycle, and checked with oscilloscope in every thinkable situation. I mean, cam signal significant edge should fall about halfway between crank signal significant edges AND not move too much forward or backward. Eight teeth ie. 16 teeth per engine cycle should be even easier. Also crank sensor wheel should be on the crankshaft, there is no other way to really know where crankshaft is.

Yes, thats why i need to reconfigure the camsensor, ive had lots of trouble with that setup, i get good readings on oscilloscope cranking, but once it starts i think because of the oilpump and all i get some flex in the cam, gears, belt etc so it´s getting close to the crank edges. It shouldn´t be that much flex tho, jesel cambelt and just a normal cam and oilpump, and no excessive play in the "distributor plug" so i tried and tried to make it run good and w/o timing errors. Is the "cam-crank" parameter used to view the time between the cam edge and crank edge?

Also there might be misfire, ignition system may not be up to the task. Please tell us more details about coils and drivers/amplifiers and so on.

8x Msd coils, wired in parallell pairs. http://www.msdignition.com/product.aspx?id=5071
1x Msd dis-2? not sure bout the model but http://www.msdignition.com/product.aspx?id=5799
Ngk Bcp8es plugs with 0.7mm gap.

I assume you have two injectors per inj output, inj 1-4 to primary, 5-8 to secondary injectors.

Correct, also them are wired in parallell pairs.

And, pc logging isn't too fast. One must use ecu logging to really see what happens and when. And even ecu logs are not fast enough to really reveal fine details about incoming cam, crank or knock signals nor outgoing ignition/injection/HS#x/LS#x signals.

I don´t use pc logging, all is internal and the 310808_003 is at highest speed, i don´t have access to oscilloscope atm.

As they say: hope this helps 

PQ

EDIT: I noticed that you are in Sweden.  I'm in Helsinki, Finland and not so far from ya.

EDIT2: a thing I noticed in log "testrun1.stf": as soon as engine stops the coolant temp gains 20C or more. I suspect some wiring and/or grounding issues. I have done engine wiring harnesses for a few years now and this kind of behaviour is a result of two things, either a faulty sensor/connection or grounding.

When engine stops it´s cause he switches ignition off i guess, and later on when the coolant temp is higher both the 02 sensors goes into warmup mode. @21.40 into the log?

I really appriciate the quick reply, thx alot!
What did u think of the cam/crank setup except for the "1rev-cycle" thing, since theres not many startup cals for us it´s much guessing in there

Regards Micke. Stockholm.
http://www.brillko.se/images/ziken/ziken%20galleri/pages/_DSC4869%20copy.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UjKv5aSfmY  (oldie from 2006 when it was working a bit better)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4MpL0jVo-o  (2008 testing on an airstrip, but the fuelpump wasn´t doin it´s job)

[PQatPIT]

If MSD is to be used then 2 pcs of these:

http://www.msdignition.com/product.aspx?id=5805


Better solutions would be here:

http://www.mwignitions.com/

One Pro-18 or much more suitable 2 pcs Pro-Drag4

Btw, what fuel do you use?

Injectors fire when you want them to. If there is 16 teeth per engine cycle and ecu is told to use 16 teeth per cycle then it will show the right rpm's. You can fabricate the cam sensor to read one cam belt wheel tooth in front of engine, this way camshaft twisting and/or distributor play is eliminated. For example I have replaced all but one cam heel bolt with non-magnetic stainless steel bolts, and that one bolt has been a normal 8.8 steel. If a good quality hall sensor is used then this works flawlessly.

I still think that coolant temp gain as soon as engine stops tells us about some wiring/connector mishap.

See attached an example for wasted spark 8-cyl calibration. There you can see how to put correct setup for 12 teeth crank wheel with one tooth from cam. You can alter it a bit to suit your crank/cam wheel setup. Check: Templates-Run...-Advanced Pickups.AEM15GEN.V1.19.gtp.

Oh yeah, nice car!

PQ

[micke240sx]

If MSD is to be used then 2 pcs of these:

http://www.msdignition.com/product.aspx?id=5805


Better solutions would be here:

http://www.mwignitions.com/

One Pro-18 or much more suitable 2 pcs Pro-Drag4

Why would i need 2 dis-4´s? Isn´t the power enough to drive two coils on each output u think?
We are converting to methanol next year so im gonna look into that link u posted too

Btw, what fuel do you use?

I think the last few races was on SV05 fuel

Injectors fire when you want them to. If there is 16 teeth per engine cycle and ecu is told to use 16 teeth per cycle then it will show the right rpm's. You can fabricate the cam sensor to read one cam belt wheel tooth in front of engine, this way camshaft twisting and/or distributor play is eliminated. For example I have replaced all but one cam heel bolt with non-magnetic stainless steel bolts, and that one bolt has been a normal 8.8 steel. If a good quality hall sensor is used then this works flawlessly.

Clever solution with the bolts.. Before we used 16 injectors staged we used a normal 16 inj teeth setup. But since theres not 16 available "locations" in the program i have to set it this way.
If it would be possible like aem done with the 5 coil outputs and still 10 locations in the ignition phasing i would ofc used that. but now i want the 8 pairs to fire once each rev so that was the only solution i could come up with.

I still think that coolant temp gain as soon as engine stops tells us about some wiring/connector mishap.

But that is like 5 minutes after he shut the engine off, the log is stopped there and then started again when i turn on ignition to download the log. I don´t agree with u. But still i got some messy readings on the sensors when the engine is running too, so i also think i need to rewire some of the ground cables.

See attached an example for wasted spark 8-cyl calibration. There you can see how to put correct setup for 12 teeth crank wheel with one tooth from cam. You can alter it a bit to suit your crank/cam wheel setup. Check: Templates-Run...-Advanced Pickups.AEM15GEN.V1.19.gtp.

Oh yeah, nice car!

PQ

Thats about the same cal i used to as a startup cal.. I still use the ignition part like that one is set up.
in 2006 we used 60-2 trigger (mag) on the crank, and then the car was running better.
so in 2007 we switch to the 8crank 1 cam setup but since that it haven´t made any runs even close to the 7.56 run we did on the first try with 21psi of boost in 2006. So thats why i feel something other is wrong with the cam-crank options :S

// Micke

[PQatPIT]

Eh, in log I didn't got that the engine was down for a few minutes and I thought about wiring issues. My bad.

If you change to methanol then you definitely need more ignition energy to compensate that. MSD #8230 Coils are good for it but not preceding electronics. One output channel per coil and those MSD DIS-4 HO (#62153) are up to the task. M&W would be a bit smaller boxes, though. One channel per coil because there have been reliability issues when two coils are used per channel and fired twice per cycle.

When talking about AEM cam/crank sensor setups we always talk about engine cycles, not single revolutions. This means that you should put 16 on Fuel teeth cell, not 8. At least this is how I think it is, I have done a few custom cam/crank setups with success. But no V8*s with twin injectors I must add.

Ignition and injection phase lists can also take decimal numbers. On some computers you need to put in a comma ( , ) and on some a dot ( . ). If you have 16 significant edges per engine cycle then whole numbers should be enough, I think.

Hmm, why you need to fire injectors twice per engine cycle? When you are at the starting line and engine is at idle then the fuel amount consumed is low and then it could be handy if injection phase can be adjustable separately for each cylinder but it is not absolutely needed. But it is a racecar so nobody is interested what comes out of exhaust as long as it is not pink elephants . When you are ready go and you are on boost the time that injectors are open is so long that it doesn't mean a thing anymore, and when they open and close regarding crankshaft position is irrelevant. Here injection amount is much more important than injection timing. If you race in some endurance classes with small engines and limited capacity for fuel tanks then economy plays a role here but not in drag racer. Ignition timings are different, as we already know.

Of course there can be some electronic interference if engine behaves like it shouldn't. For example when the engine is at highest torque peak the injectors are open the longest and ignition system is working hardest then these interferences might apply, and may not anywhere else in rpm scale. When/if you convert to true CDI ignition system then electrical noise reduction and correct wiring techniques are more important. For sensitive cam, crank, TPS, MAP and auxiliary pressure sensor signals I usually use Tasker C4015 cable. It has four conductors inside a shield and usually I put two conductors for signal ground, on for +5V or similar, and one for signal. This cable hasn't let me down ever in any wiring harnesses I have done in the past. With resistive element temperature signals and for injector wires I have used 2x0,35 or 2x0,75 cable and i have twisted it to form a twisted pair, with cordless drill. I know, a lot of hand work but I can't afford to make these harnesses the wrong way.

Well, some thoughts in general, not necessarily touching your race car. Maybe you want to send some pictures of your car? Email is pq (at) pitstop.fi

PQ

[micke240sx]

Eh, in log I didn't got that the engine was down for a few minutes and I thought about wiring issues. My bad.

If you change to methanol then you definitely need more ignition energy to compensate that. MSD #8230 Coils are good for it but not preceding electronics. One output channel per coil and those MSD DIS-4 HO (#62153) are up to the task. M&W would be a bit smaller boxes, though. One channel per coil because there have been reliability issues when two coils are used per channel and fired twice per cycle.

The plans for next year is upgrading some of the ignitionparts and if u say the coils are good i guess we will stick with em. unless we do some old hillbilly distributor kind for relability. but definately another dis-4 for more power if we stick with cdi.

When talking about AEM cam/crank sensor setups we always talk about engine cycles, not single revolutions. This means that you should put 16 on Fuel teeth cell, not 8. At least this is how I think it is, I have done a few custom cam/crank setups with success. But no V8*s with twin injectors I must add.

Since the ems only got 12 injector outputs, and only configurable in 10 diffrent positions per cycle it´s hard to get an even flow on all cylinders at all times i think. Look at the picture i post at the end to see the only reasonable version i can think of for using staged batch injectors and still keeping the inj teeth at 16. the way it´s set up now is also included.

Ignition and injection phase lists can also take decimal numbers. On some computers you need to put in a comma ( , ) and on some a dot ( . ). If you have 16 significant edges per engine cycle then whole numbers should be enough, I think.

Yeah i think so too, since aem kinda converts the actual teeth to a "virtual" teeth pattern i don´t see any reason to use other than those whole numbers.

Hmm, why you need to fire injectors twice per engine cycle? When you are at the starting line and engine is at idle then the fuel amount consumed is low and then it could be handy if injection phase can be adjustable separately for each cylinder but it is not absolutely needed. But it is a racecar so nobody is interested what comes out of exhaust as long as it is not pink elephants . When you are ready go and you are on boost the time that injectors are open is so long that it doesn't mean a thing anymore, and when they open and close regarding crankshaft position is irrelevant. Here injection amount is much more important than injection timing. If you race in some endurance classes with small engines and limited capacity for fuel tanks then economy plays a role here but not in drag racer. Ignition timings are different, as we already know.

I just want it to be an even distribution of fuel to the cylinders, so i don´t lean out on some cause of using wierd injector phasing. And i guess i answered this a bit in the previous quote. I do want to be able to fire the injectors once per cycle as i did before the staged part was constructed.

Of course there can be some electronic interference if engine behaves like it shouldn't. For example when the engine is at highest torque peak the injectors are open the longest and ignition system is working hardest then these interferences might apply, and may not anywhere else in rpm scale. When/if you convert to true CDI ignition system then electrical noise reduction and correct wiring techniques are more important. For sensitive cam, crank, TPS, MAP and auxiliary pressure sensor signals I usually use Tasker C4015 cable. It has four conductors inside a shield and usually I put two conductors for signal ground, on for +5V or similar, and one for signal. This cable hasn't let me down ever in any wiring harnesses I have done in the past. With resistive element temperature signals and for injector wires I have used 2x0,35 or 2x0,75 cable and i have twisted it to form a twisted pair, with cordless drill. I know, a lot of hand work but I can't afford to make these harnesses the wrong way.

Well, some thoughts in general, not necessarily touching your race car. Maybe you want to send some pictures of your car? Email is pq (at) pitstop.fi
PQ

Im grateful for all the tips i will sure keep em in mind, but still really no big "solutions" i guess. I don´t think the problem is with an unstable signal from the sensors, since the car has run alot better with the same noise in the sensor readings. I mean the noise isn´t that much that it even moves one cell in the fuel/ign map.

Last year we had some issues with the Dwell time for triggering the msd was too short at higher rpm so i think the dis just filtered the signal off as noise at higher rpms. I don´t know if it´s perfect now either.. All suggestions will be tested

[Blacksaleen95]

well...my .02


why 8 tooth crank? The aem wants to see a 12 tooth wheel... If this is a custom setup you should have a 12 tooth wheel made. when you don't use a 12 tooth crank wheel you have to have the a-tooth table setup to trick the aem into seeing 12/24 teeth... Can you get a 12 tooth wheel made and try that?

also... I'm not a big fan of msd products...   If I were in your position I'd ditch those msd coils and that cdi box and just wire up some ls1 style coils directly to the aem coil outputs.  Since the ls1 style coils have the ignitors built in you won' tneed a cdi box...one less thing to fail.

just my opinion.

[micke240sx]

well...my .02


why 8 tooth crank? The aem wants to see a 12 tooth wheel... If this is a custom setup you should have a 12 tooth wheel made. when you don't use a 12 tooth crank wheel you have to have the a-tooth table setup to trick the aem into seeing 12/24 teeth... Can you get a 12 tooth wheel made and try that?

also... I'm not a big fan of msd products...   If I were in your position I'd ditch those msd coils and that cdi box and just wire up some ls1 style coils directly to the aem coil outputs.  Since the ls1 style coils have the ignitors built in you won' tneed a cdi box...one less thing to fail.

just my opinion.

I had no idea that the aem prefers a 12 tooth, never heard that before but alot of the universal "startup cals" are done that way so i guess u got a point, we started out with a 60-2 and then went to a 4 tooth wheel but i had some issues with that so we made the 8 tooth.. shouldn´t be any trouble to make one quick but does it really matter? ofc on a 6 or 4 cyl it´s an easy calculation to make the phasing so i thought it wase because of that they used it.

Any particular reason u think the reason for the trouble i have is in the msd or just bad memories?

[Blacksaleen95]

The aem is based on a 12 tooth wheel. Anything that isn't a 12 tooth the A-tooth table in the software converts to 12 tooth...  If you look at your a-tooth table now you'll probably have alternating 5,6's and it'll end with a 3.   I've talked to Henry on this matter as we adapted an 18tooth wheel to work using a unique a-tooth table and fuel teeth settings...however it would have been much easier to run the 12 tooth from the beginnnig...and if that was an option that's what would have been done.... IMO if you can make the 12 tooth def do it. If you don't do it now, you're going to have to down the road anyways....in fact if you takl to any of the aem tech's they'll prob reccommend you do the same.

Honestly...I've never had good luck with MSD stuff...Usually if I had an issue ign related it'd be traced back to the msd... The mustang guys esp have problems with the aem and the msd dist.... it seems as though msd and aem don't get along..lol...  Not to mention, imo the coils driven directly by the aem gets rid of the middle man  cdi box, and its one less thing to fail. LS1 type coils are relability.com since they're oem and tehy're gonig to produce similar results to what you have already.  Your best bet is to take the car out...have it break up and then download an internal log. Don't forget to log cam, a-tooth, crank, etc....all the important stuff.

Have you tried closing the gap on the plugs a bit? is it rpm related or load related. 

[micke240sx]

The aem is based on a 12 tooth wheel. Anything that isn't a 12 tooth the A-tooth table in the software converts to 12 tooth...  If you look at your a-tooth table now you'll probably have alternating 5,6's and it'll end with a 3.   I've talked to Henry on this matter as we adapted an 18tooth wheel to work using a unique a-tooth table and fuel teeth settings...however it would have been much easier to run the 12 tooth from the beginnnig...and if that was an option that's what would have been done.... IMO if you can make the 12 tooth def do it. If you don't do it now, you're going to have to down the road anyways....in fact if you takl to any of the aem tech's they'll prob reccommend you do the same.

Honestly...I've never had good luck with MSD stuff...Usually if I had an issue ign related it'd be traced back to the msd... The mustang guys esp have problems with the aem and the msd dist.... it seems as though msd and aem don't get along..lol...  Not to mention, imo the coils driven directly by the aem gets rid of the middle man  cdi box, and its one less thing to fail. LS1 type coils are relability.com since they're oem and tehy're gonig to produce similar results to what you have already.  Your best bet is to take the car out...have it break up and then download an internal log. Don't forget to log cam, a-tooth, crank, etc....all the important stuff.

Have you tried closing the gap on the plugs a bit? is it rpm related or load related. 

No we had the same gap since we started running it, we thought the msd would give enough power to get a good spark at those low levels of boost we are running.
In the first post there is two logs posted, one of a run and one of some free revving with all the cam-crank parameters. but ofc thats not when the issues start.
Did u take a minute to look at the cal? what´s your opinion on the cam-crank setting, (except for the 8tooth ) tooth time minimum, ign range etc and the Coil dwell settings.

I agree with u on using the ls1 coils, but now i guess its a bit late since we are goin alcohol next season? will they do the job there?

And it neither load or rpm related i think, it runs pretty good in first gear with the same boost, but the missfires usually start a bit out on the track, at about 1/16mile and up.. :S

thx for your input on things, frustrated here //micke.

[PQatPIT]

The plans for next year is upgrading some of the ignitionparts and if u say the coils are good i guess we will stick with em. unless we do some old hillbilly distributor kind for relability. but definately another dis-4 for more power if we stick with cdi.

Since the ems only got 12 injector outputs, and only configurable in 10 diffrent positions per cycle it´s hard to get an even flow on all cylinders at all times i think. Look at the picture i post at the end to see the only reasonable version i can think of for using staged batch injectors and still keeping the inj teeth at 16. the way it´s set up now is also included.

Yeah i think so too, since aem kinda converts the actual teeth to a "virtual" teeth pattern i don´t see any reason to use other than those whole numbers.

I just want it to be an even distribution of fuel to the cylinders, so i don´t lean out on some cause of using wierd injector phasing. And i guess i answered this a bit in the previous quote. I do want to be able to fire the injectors once per cycle as i did before the staged part was constructed.

Im grateful for all the tips i will sure keep em in mind, but still really no big "solutions" i guess. I don´t think the problem is with an unstable signal from the sensors, since the car has run alot better with the same noise in the sensor readings. I mean the noise isn´t that much that it even moves one cell in the fuel/ign map.

Last year we had some issues with the Dwell time for triggering the msd was too short at higher rpm so i think the dis just filtered the signal off as noise at higher rpms. I don´t know if it´s perfect now either.. All suggestions will be tested

MSD coils have been strong in my and my collague's books since the '80's. True, some MSD ignition boxes haven't done what they should have, but done good in last three years at least with me. So, take M&W instead, can't go wrong. Since you will use methanol no skimpy ignition system will suffice. Those gone era's distributor systems are crap, you get only electrical interferences and lose ignition energy just when really needed. Some suggestions say that LS1 coils would do, this is simply not true because their energy at the plug gap is not enough when the gap is big enough to reliably ignite air/fuel mix. Anything less than 1.2 mm is too small, 1.5 would be much better and I'm not alone with my thoughts. For example see:

http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3409
http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=390

Since you already use Universal model the ignition output is rising edge signal, and MSD ignition boxes use this exclusively so MSD is a no brainer solution. Btw, I do not import, export, sell or have any other relationship with MSD in any case, only that I have used them in my own and customers cars for many years now.

Yep, MSD DIS boxes work best when dwell time is 2,5 ms regardless of load, voltage or rpm's.


The injected AMOUNT of fuel is much much more critical than WHEN it is injected. If you would use only two injector outputs, first one to main injectors all wired to same and second output to auxiliary injectors wired to same then only one cylinder would get the fuel injected at the right moment and you wouldn't notice it in any way in other cylinders. With that kind of engine the injection timing is insignificant at low load, the engine just can't blow up because of this. When on boost the injection time is so long that injection timing covers so much of the engine cycle that it becomes insignificant also. If this engine would be in a daily driver with catalytic converters and other pollution control systems then injection timing also has a role, but only on low loads and definitely not on boost.

Blowing up an engine or one/some cylinders just can't happen if fuel is injected at "wrong" moment, it just waits until inlet valve starts to open. Injector balancing and proper wirings and connectors are also very important so that every injector puts out a reguired amount of fuel, not a tad more and definitely not less. No worries here.

What happened when you converted to staged injection and tried to use 16 in Fuel teeth?



The 12 teeth system (24 per cycle) is usually employed because in many applications there are quite a lot more significant edges coming from crank and 24 per cycle offers enough resolution to ensure accurate enough ignition timing. On some Ford base calibrations there is 16 per cycle and it is also quite enough for accurate timing. If one fabricates a crank wheel it is usually recommended to make it a 12 teeth wheel, not 8. This way one can use it for six cyliner engines also, not only on four and eight cylinder engines. If oyu look at GM LS2 calibration there is 48 significant edges which are converted to 8 internal teeth, and in injection and ignition phase lists we can use successive whole numbers. This works also, couple of months ago I did a Pontiac Trans Am with implanted LS2 install with Honda 30-1060 box this way.

There is no internal 12 teeth system, it is just a good way to have a resolution and accuracy where needed and to keep unnecessary information away. AEM ecu injects and ignites when told to and this can be achieved many ways. For example you can use 60-2 triggering and incoming signal can be converted to 12 or 6 or 4 internal teeth and no accuracy is lost.


True, no big revelations or such this time. Only some thoughts about what happens and what not.

I really hope that I can see you and your team at Alastaro Circuit here in Finland next summer. I also might come to visit Sweden before Christmas when they have this Bilsport Mässan in Stockholm. I visited also Mantorp track when there was this Bilsport Action meet a few weeks ago.


PQ

[micke240sx]

The plans for next year is upgrading some of the ignitionparts and if u say the coils are good i guess we will stick with em. unless we do some old hillbilly distributor kind for relability. but definately another dis-4 for more power if we stick with cdi.

Since the ems only got 12 injector outputs, and only configurable in 10 diffrent positions per cycle it´s hard to get an even flow on all cylinders at all times i think. Look at the picture i post at the end to see the only reasonable version i can think of for using staged batch injectors and still keeping the inj teeth at 16. the way it´s set up now is also included.

Yeah i think so too, since aem kinda converts the actual teeth to a "virtual" teeth pattern i don´t see any reason to use other than those whole numbers.

I just want it to be an even distribution of fuel to the cylinders, so i don´t lean out on some cause of using wierd injector phasing. And i guess i answered this a bit in the previous quote. I do want to be able to fire the injectors once per cycle as i did before the staged part was constructed.

Im grateful for all the tips i will sure keep em in mind, but still really no big "solutions" i guess. I don´t think the problem is with an unstable signal from the sensors, since the car has run alot better with the same noise in the sensor readings. I mean the noise isn´t that much that it even moves one cell in the fuel/ign map.

Last year we had some issues with the Dwell time for triggering the msd was too short at higher rpm so i think the dis just filtered the signal off as noise at higher rpms. I don´t know if it´s perfect now either.. All suggestions will be tested

MSD coils have been strong in my and my collague's books since the '80's. True, some MSD ignition boxes haven't done what they should have, but done good in last three years at least with me. So, take M&W instead, can't go wrong. Since you will use methanol no skimpy ignition system will suffice. Those gone era's distributor systems are crap, you get only electrical interferences and lose ignition energy just when really needed. Some suggestions say that LS1 coils would do, this is simply not true because their energy at the plug gap is not enough when the gap is big enough to reliably ignite air/fuel mix. Anything less than 1.2 mm is too small, 1.5 would be much better and I'm not alone with my thoughts. For example see:

http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3409
http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=390

Since you already use Universal model the ignition output is rising edge signal, and MSD ignition boxes use this exclusively so MSD is a no brainer solution. Btw, I do not import, export, sell or have any other relationship with MSD in any case, only that I have used them in my own and customers cars for many years now.

Yep, MSD DIS boxes work best when dwell time is 2,5 ms regardless of load, voltage or rpm's.


The injected AMOUNT of fuel is much much more critical than WHEN it is injected. If you would use only two injector outputs, first one to main injectors all wired to same and second output to auxiliary injectors wired to same then only one cylinder would get the fuel injected at the right moment and you wouldn't notice it in any way in other cylinders. With that kind of engine the injection timing is insignificant at low load, the engine just can't blow up because of this. When on boost the injection time is so long that injection timing covers so much of the engine cycle that it becomes insignificant also. If this engine would be in a daily driver with catalytic converters and other pollution control systems then injection timing also has a role, but only on low loads and definitely not on boost.

Blowing up an engine or one/some cylinders just can't happen if fuel is injected at "wrong" moment, it just waits until inlet valve starts to open. Injector balancing and proper wirings and connectors are also very important so that every injector puts out a reguired amount of fuel, not a tad more and definitely not less. No worries here.

What happened when you converted to staged injection and tried to use 16 in Fuel teeth?



The 12 teeth system (24 per cycle) is usually employed because in many applications there are quite a lot more significant edges coming from crank and 24 per cycle offers enough resolution to ensure accurate enough ignition timing. On some Ford base calibrations there is 16 per cycle and it is also quite enough for accurate timing. If one fabricates a crank wheel it is usually recommended to make it a 12 teeth wheel, not 8. This way one can use it for six cyliner engines also, not only on four and eight cylinder engines. If oyu look at GM LS2 calibration there is 48 significant edges which are converted to 8 internal teeth, and in injection and ignition phase lists we can use successive whole numbers. This works also, couple of months ago I did a Pontiac Trans Am with implanted LS2 install with Honda 30-1060 box this way.

There is no internal 12 teeth system, it is just a good way to have a resolution and accuracy where needed and to keep unnecessary information away. AEM ecu injects and ignites when told to and this can be achieved many ways. For example you can use 60-2 triggering and incoming signal can be converted to 12 or 6 or 4 internal teeth and no accuracy is lost.


True, no big revelations or such this time. Only some thoughts about what happens and what not.

I really hope that I can see you and your team at Alastaro Circuit here in Finland next summer. I also might come to visit Sweden before Christmas when they have this Bilsport Mässan in Stockholm. I visited also Mantorp track when there was this Bilsport Action meet a few weeks ago.


PQ

We was on alastaro last year, but not on a big drag event but on something i think was called Xtreme Fi something. Not many dragcars was there, but unfortunatly an evil backfire blew up our plenum so we didn´t run much.
Bilsport action meet? U mean bilsport no-action meet , except for the drifters i guess.. We were there aswell but didn´t get any runs on the track cause of all the trouble with that event.

Hmm interesting with the gap, my friends in "christell racing" use 0.5mm gap with msd 7 and distributor and they made 1900ish hp on pumpgas. Was just on the phone with the tuner of that car about that.

I did never try to use Staged with 16 teeth injection, I did all the work with the cal before i started the car up for this season. But if i wanna do the staged like i drew it on the pic, any minimum duty cycle recomended for it? So i don´t get pink elephants

So since i got no logs of the actual dwelltime, what mS will i get with the settings in the cal i posted? 12.5mS? (edit: Just found a good info bout the dwell http://forum.aempower.com/forum/index.php/topic,20519.msg111870.html#msg111870 )

[PQatPIT]

We was on alastaro last year, but not on a big drag event but on something i think was called Xtreme Fi something. Not many dragcars was there, but unfortunatly an evil backfire blew up our plenum so we didn´t run much.
Bilsport action meet? U mean bilsport no-action meet , except for the drifters i guess.. We were there aswell but didn´t get any runs on the track cause of all the trouble with that event.

Hmm interesting with the gap, my friends in "christell racing" use 0.5mm gap with msd 7 and distributor and they made 1900ish hp on pumpgas. Was just on the phone with the tuner of that car about that.

I did never try to use Staged with 16 teeth injection, I did all the work with the cal before i started the car up for this season. But if i wanna do the staged like i drew it on the pic, any minimum duty cycle recomended for it? So i don´t get pink elephants

So since i got no logs of the actual dwelltime, what mS will i get with the settings in the cal i posted? 12.5mS? (edit: Just found a good info bout the dwell http://forum.aempower.com/forum/index.php/topic,20519.msg111870.html#msg111870 )

Alastaro is a great track when the weather and all the other conditions are good. FHRA Nitro Nationals is the biggest event there, a couple of weeks after Midsummer party and usually at the first weekend of July. Last time there was more than two hundred race teams and a lot new track records. If you participated a Xtreme.fi-event there hasn't ever been many Drag race teams, these events are more about show than go.

Bilsport No-Action meet was bad for drag racer and good for drift boys. I was there with Team Falken from Finland and we really had a good time drifting. I was only a tourist, no tech stuff nor anything else for me. I took a few pictures and generally enjoyed life.


Ideally (to get on without electrical noise and/or other anomalies regarding for example fuel delivery system) the transition position where secondary injectors start to inject should be lower than used rpm scale, I mean lower where the engine is to be used. If power band is at 5000 to 8000 rpm secondaries should start at for example 4500 rpm. The exact details should be asked directly from AEM engineers, SB or HS maybe, please chime in here?

I have seen and studied reportedly good calibrations where secondaries have started with 4.0 ms and at the same rpm and load sites primaries have lost about 3.7 ms. I guess that this 0,3 ms gap is insignificant because total injector pulse width is quite a bit longer and it is out used rpm range. Of course I can't predict actual numbers, you must check o2 readings from both banks and be careful when tuning. Also Spark plug "reading" is a very good tool to check that everything is ok.

Of course if Christell Racing team have made that much power then they definitely have done things about right, otherwise it wouldn't been possible. Hmm, hmm-m, how much more power they would have made without dizzy and too small plug gaps? Maybe we never find out but I think that a bit more.

That kind of systems are very sensitive for plug and heat range selection and proper alignment of side electrodes. With good high energy ignition systems you wouldn't have these limitations and you could use plugs that can easier take the punisment and do not worry about plug failures between runs or events. Last autumn I made a heavily boosted Nissan SR20DET engine for a friend with AEM, MSD DIS4-HO igniton box with new stock c.o.p. coils. Max boost is about 2.2 bars and after a season of racing he still uses those same plugs and no signs of failures or other problems. Power is about 580 hp and 780 Nm of torque.  Plugs are Denso IK31 gapped at 1.5 mm, if my memory serves me correct. I was able to use this cold plugs because there was enough ignition energy to start combustion process properly.


Happy racing, for everyone here!

PQ

[micke240sx]

We was on alastaro last year, but not on a big drag event but on something i think was called Xtreme Fi something. Not many dragcars was there, but unfortunatly an evil backfire blew up our plenum so we didn´t run much.
Bilsport action meet? U mean bilsport no-action meet , except for the drifters i guess.. We were there aswell but didn´t get any runs on the track cause of all the trouble with that event.

Hmm interesting with the gap, my friends in "christell racing" use 0.5mm gap with msd 7 and distributor and they made 1900ish hp on pumpgas. Was just on the phone with the tuner of that car about that.

I did never try to use Staged with 16 teeth injection, I did all the work with the cal before i started the car up for this season. But if i wanna do the staged like i drew it on the pic, any minimum duty cycle recomended for it? So i don´t get pink elephants

So since i got no logs of the actual dwelltime, what mS will i get with the settings in the cal i posted? 12.5mS? (edit: Just found a good info bout the dwell http://forum.aempower.com/forum/index.php/topic,20519.msg111870.html#msg111870 )

Alastaro is a great track when the weather and all the other conditions are good. FHRA Nitro Nationals is the biggest event there, a couple of weeks after Midsummer party and usually at the first weekend of July. Last time there was more than two hundred race teams and a lot new track records. If you participated a Xtreme.fi-event there hasn't ever been many Drag race teams, these events are more about show than go.

Bilsport No-Action meet was bad for drag racer and good for drift boys. I was there with Team Falken from Finland and we really had a good time drifting. I was only a tourist, no tech stuff nor anything else for me. I took a few pictures and generally enjoyed life.


Ideally (to get on without electrical noise and/or other anomalies regarding for example fuel delivery system) the transition position where secondary injectors start to inject should be lower than used rpm scale, I mean lower where the engine is to be used. If power band is at 5000 to 8000 rpm secondaries should start at for example 4500 rpm. The exact details should be asked directly from AEM engineers, SB or HS maybe, please chime in here?

I have seen and studied reportedly good calibrations where secondaries have started with 4.0 ms and at the same rpm and load sites primaries have lost about 3.7 ms. I guess that this 0,3 ms gap is insignificant because total injector pulse width is quite a bit longer and it is out used rpm range. Of course I can't predict actual numbers, you must check o2 readings from both banks and be careful when tuning. Also Spark plug "reading" is a very good tool to check that everything is ok.

Of course if Christell Racing team have made that much power then they definitely have done things about right, otherwise it wouldn't been possible. Hmm, hmm-m, how much more power they would have made without dizzy and too small plug gaps? Maybe we never find out but I think that a bit more.

That kind of systems are very sensitive for plug and heat range selection and proper alignment of side electrodes. With good high energy ignition systems you wouldn't have these limitations and you could use plugs that can easier take the punisment and do not worry about plug failures between runs or events. Last autumn I made a heavily boosted Nissan SR20DET engine for a friend with AEM, MSD DIS4-HO igniton box with new stock c.o.p. coils. Max boost is about 2.2 bars and after a season of racing he still uses those same plugs and no signs of failures or other problems. Power is about 580 hp and 780 Nm of torque.  Plugs are Denso IK31 gapped at 1.5 mm, if my memory serves me correct. I was able to use this cold plugs because there was enough ignition energy to start combustion process properly.


Happy racing, for everyone here!

PQ

We haven´t had any problems with ngk plugs ever, when we ran with accel and ac-delco before getting boost we had alot of trouble with em, one little flood and two or three plugs were gone. But the ngk´s seem to handle it just fine

Any opinions about the 2step problem? I wasn´t in the game before aem started with rev limiter wizards so i dunno how to set it up manually if that is what i need to do.

Almost all of the input i´ve got now on the questions I asked is about that the spark energy is too low, So until next race (21/9) we will use dual dis-4 ho and try one set of low gap plugs and one with large gap. I really hope that will solve some problems since the fuel is almost impossible to tune when the engine is missfiring so much. the afr is all over the place

And btw, in the log i posted, the secondaries haven´t even kicked in yet. they need a little more boost until they start opening.
And btw #2, the boost almost seems like its creeping up in the log, and that´s probably because we got a wrong kind of pressure regulator for the wastegates, so at those low pressure differences in the plenum and in the top of the wastegate it just slowly builds boost.. I was goin to change the springs if the car was running better.